{The List -} Government & Social Engineering

[Flinx]

2.Society ( similar to SMAC's Social Engineering model proposals)

I am in favor of a system similar to this.

In Civ3 each new government type is either clearly superior in every way (republic, democracy) to your current gov type or clearly inferior/pointless (monarchy, communism) due to the chaos penalty for switching. No matter what strategy you are using you always choose the same governments; delaying 4 turns for a wonder race is about the only thing you have to think about.

Is there a country that does not claim it's government is not a democracy? Even dictators have elections, they just limit who can vote (through disenfranchisement or intimidation) or the power of the elected assembly or who can run for office. Why not just have sliders/check boxes for power held by various branches of government, who can/cannot vote, level of state oppression/control (police/military), etc., etc., etc.

If you want to be a malevolent dictator or benevolent despot in modern times that is your choice.

[Kramerman]

what about government Utopia?

[Az]

I'm really sorry that I haven't updated the list in the last week. I had some severe computer problems, and very little time. I hope you folks understand, I'll correct my computer's prodigal ways soon, I hope.

thanks, and sorry.

[Odin]

I like SE because you don't have the "stereotypical" governments in other games. As one of the posters said before, why can't we be benevolent dictators or leaders of a communist democracy?

Here are my ideas for choices:

Government
Absolutism
Oligarchy
Democracy

Economy
Autarky
Mercantilism
Communism
Socialism
Welfare State
Regulated Capitalism
Capitalism

State Structure
Unitary
Federal
Confederation

Values of Society (pick 2)
Scientific
Materialistic/Consumerist
Religious
Nationalistic
Progressive
Traditional
Militaristic

[Pedrunn]

Divide Rligion from Economic system and make combos:

Government
   Democracy
   Oligarchy (Aristocracy)
   Monarchy (Dictatorship)
   Theocracy
   Technocracy
Economy
    Ancient Asian (Please rename it - Collective Servitude?)
    Slavery
    Feudalism
    Mercantilism
    Capitalism
    Socialism

Capitalist Democracy (USA today), Capitalist Monarchy (80's Latin America dictatorships), Comunist Monarchy (communist Russia), Feudalist Monarchy (Medieval Europe), Absolute Monarchy (Renaissance Europe) Slavery Monarchy (Roman Empire), Capitalist Theocracy (fundamentalist countries today), Absolute theocracy (Calvine's belgium?), Comunist Democracy (Marx utopia), etc...

PS: Odin , What is autarky? And how come you didnt add Feudalism, Ancient asia (All the people are servants of the govern - eg. Egypt) and slave-based classical age economy (eg. rome)

[Brent]

Let your government control your governors when you don't directly control production.

[lajzar]

Here's an idea. Governor independance. When you have a representative government, there is a % chance when something is finished that the governor will choose the next item, and the player cannot change that until it is finished. This governor won't choose limited production items such as wonders. Sample percentages might be:

Anarchy 0
Despotism 0
Monarchy 0
Republic 10
Fascism 5
Democracy 20

Theocracy 0
Fundamentalism 0
Blood Cult 0

Technocracy 5
Virtual Democracy 25
Corporate Republic 5
Feudalism 20
City State 5

Optionally, the player might be able to cancel production at a severe happoness penalty.

Another idea. Have a revolt threshold stat for governments. When that percentage of teh population is in cities with disorder, the government automatically collapses into anarchy. For a democracy, this might be 10%. For a despotism, 90%. Most governments should be around 50%. It struck me as silly how you could have every city in disorder for multiple turns, with no penalty beyond production.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

My idea for governments and Social Engineering is more along the lines of what I call 'Social Intereaction'. The notion is that your Civilization, city structure and government type-along with your laws-will effect the citizens within it. More importantly, though, is the notion of your citizens having a role in deciding the course of your empire. I actually suggested this way back when Civ3 was being created, so I can't really vouch for the accuracy-I'll do my best, though.

Firstly, you would have several 'Factions' within your society-each of which will have a varying amount of 'Influence' on the shape and direction of your Empire.
Some factions might include: Labourers, Military, Scientists, Nobility/Wealthy, ?Environmentalists? and Merchants/Beaurucrats. The base level of 'Influence' each faction has would be based on your Civ Traits. For instance, A commercial/Industrial Civ will have a very influential Labourer and Merchant faction! This base influence alters according to government type and the number of relevent improvements you build. Again, as an example, if the previous Civ built LOTS of military and Scientific improvements/Wonders, then the influence of its merchants/labourers might begin to decline, whilst its scientific/military factions will grow in strength!
Technology and diplomacy choices you make, as well as laws you pass (if applicable) might also effect the demographics of your society! I have to go, for now, but when I come back, I'll discuss my ideas on what effects 'Influence' would have on the game!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

[Trifna]

Originally posted by Pedrunn
Divide Rligion from Economic system and make combos:

Government
   Democracy
   Oligarchy (Aristocracy)
   Monarchy (Dictatorship)
   Theocracy
   Technocracy
Economy
    Ancient Asian (Please rename it - Collective Servitude?)
    Slavery
    Feudalism
    Mercantilism
    Capitalism
    Socialism

Capitalist Democracy (USA today), Capitalist Monarchy (80's Latin America dictatorships), Comunist Monarchy (communist Russia), Feudalist Monarchy (Medieval Europe), Absolute Monarchy (Renaissance Europe) Slavery Monarchy (Roman Empire), Capitalist Theocracy (fundamentalist countries today), Absolute theocracy (Calvine's belgium?), Comunist Democracy (Marx utopia), etc...

PS: Odin , What is autarky? And how come you didnt add Feudalism, Ancient asia (All the people are servants of the govern - eg. Egypt) and slave-based classical age economy (eg. rome)

Pedrunn, would that pretty much be what I proposed more extensively on page 2 of this thread?

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

So, what is this Factional Influence I'm talking about?

First up, there would be 'City-level' factions and 'Empire-Wide' Factions. The influence number (and integer between 0.0 and 1.0) of a particular faction, both at city and national level, would have the following effects.

1) It determines the amount of money raised from taxes at a national and city level. i.e.-each faction would have a 'revenue number' to determine how much gpt they are worth (at, say, 10% tax). Obviously wealthy factions, like merchants and the Nobility, will have a higher RN than labourers and farmers (beurocrats, relgious and organized crime factions would be in the middle!) This 'RN' would be increased by that factions influence number.

2) Any city's set to governer will have a % chance, based on the most powerful factions' Influence number, of setting the production queue to something that THEY want.

3) There is also a % chance of the most powerful factions' thwarting your attempts to build certain improvements and/or research certain techs.

4) The most influential factions will also have a % chance of demand you change to certain types of goverments and/or raising/lowering taxes (both at a city or Civ-wide level).

5) When a city goes into revolt, the faction which has the most influence, in that city, will determine the nature of the revolt. For instance, a revolting city which has a very strong religious faction will risk the possibility of a 'Religious Schism', wheras one where the military is dominant will see all the military units in that city turn 'neutral' (i.e., they go rogue), and start attacking your loyal units and cities!

6) If you have a Civil War, the most influential Factions in the breakaway state will decide the nature of the new civ!

Anyway, those are a few ideas. The notion of 'Absolutity' will also effect influence, though, and I'll discuss that later!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

[Az]

List updated.

Some of my comments:

I really like the Ideas of Federalism, and classes in society. I think this should have two layers: class and culture+religion+nationality.

This will show us how multicultural societies will work.

[kolpo]

Both Sweden and the USA are democracies but there economies are regulated on very different ways and there economical ideologies are very different. In civ3 is that difference is not repressented.

But because this is civ3 and not some paradox game has it to remain simple, only a few economical idealogies and all must have very simple effects.

You don't have to include complete economic models in civ3 for that you can let them work on a very simple ways, I suggest to only include the 3 most basic economic ideologies and to give them very simple effects like:

capitalism: +30% luxeries, no maintenance for factories, universities and energy plants(all private)
human capitalism: every unhappy citizens becomes content at the cost of 1 gold with the exception of war unhappyness(social security). Double maintenace cost for universities.
communism: less trade,more production.

To avoid discussions about which economic ideology is the best should all be perfectly balanced, all should have there use and none of them should be the best this is a game after all and not a simulation.

[Inverse Icarus]

i'm suprised theres not more support for social engineering to completely replace the governments.

why should we limit ourselves to predefined governments, when we could set it up so different levels of technology allow different edicts / policies, which would invariably control the government?

if you wanted to eventually for a republic, there would be certain edicts / policies that would allow you to act as one, all along the way, getting better (perhaps more and more efficient?) as time went on and your technology got better.

with social engineering for governments, you wouldn't be bound to 6 or 7 governments, you could essentially greate your own.

why draw a line such as COMMUNISM | DEMOCRACY? what about Democratic Socialisms?

[Trifna]

Uber, there's alot of support for it... I just already wrote what I had

Here's what I had written, which can be simple and cover EVERYTHING a society is (I think).

Originally posted by Trifna
I think I can update and resume my way of looking at this:



Goal

The goal is to look at what forms a government and to see how we could bring all this government in a few aspects. The ones I see are "System of values", "Justification of power", "Control system [justice, police...]", "Statecraft", "Administrative structure", "Economic system".




Definitions

- System of values: what forms the core belief for someone's life
- Justification of power: what is the rulers' justification for their power
- Control system: how citizens are controlled (justice, police...)
- Statecraft: who is put to direct the state, which necessarily implies how the state is ruled and its philosophy
- Administrative structure: the way power is divided between the main part the subdivisions
- Economic system: how economy is ruled





Difference with Civ 3 system, and this system's way to look at the problem

The main difference here is that it is about showing what structures and forms the government, not about showing a few possible results to chose from. In other words, it is not about creating categories like "fascism" and "democracy" as in precedent titles, but to show what is forming societies and, of course, someone can bring fascism or representative democracy (or what pleases him) by puting what forms that. ANY society can be built through such a system, in its broad aspects. Everything that forms a government should be there in a simple way.




Example that I brang earlier (updated, and not perfect)

*System of values*
religion - science - nobility [goes from European nobles to Confucius] - individualistic freedom - nationalism

*Justification of power*
theocratic - nationalist - militarily enforced - representativity - self-governance - nobility - technocratic

*Control system*
theocratic - oligarchic - martial - tribal or local - free for all [each locality organized itself as they wish and can]

*Statecraft*
totalitarian [includes king only, pope or else, depending on "justification of power"] - oligarchic [includes king + nobles or whattever else] - moderate democracy [some have more power, like actual democracies] - total democracy

*Administrative structure*
centralized - federation - republic - [Switzerland-like] - decentralized [includes anarchist local self-government, tribal local governance...]

*Economic system*
communism - soft-line communism [not following completely] - wealth state - moderate capitalism - complete capitalism

Six factors making a complete and coherent society. Not just "Democratic" or "Monarchic". It seems pretty straight forward, but it wasn't discussed very much.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

OK, to finish my thoughts on Governments and Social Engineering, I would like to add the following things.

First up, I like the idea of specific, delineated government types-but merely as a STARTING point! As I've been saying, however, I feel that the way a particular government actually looks will be based on the confluence of the desires of both the players and the people he rules!

Anyway, on that subject, the next influence on factional influence would be what I call the 'Absolutity Index' (AI)! Basically, the more 'Totalitarian' the government type, the lower the overall influence of the various factions within your society. Each government type, though, will have a different AI for each faction, amounting to a number of positive and negative modifiers to the influence of each faction! For instance a Theocracy would GREATLY increase the influence of the religious faction, whilst reducing that of both the administrati and wealthy elite. A feudal society, on the other hand, would greatly increase the influence of the Wealthy Elite (nobility), whilst reducing that of the labourers and farmers (a monarchy, unlike Feudal rule, would reduce almost every factions influence).
It would be possible, however, to go into the government (Social Engineering) screen, and manually adjust each factions influence manually, up or down to the limits allowd by that government type! For example, if you wanted your democracy to be opposed to 'Freedom of Religion', then you might reduce the influence of the Religious faction! Be warned, though, that reducing a factions influence will increase it's unhappiness-which could lead to them revolting in cities where they are strong (and even Civil War!!)
In addition to it's AI, each gov. type would be delineated along both the lines they are in Civ3 (Base Corruption, unit maintainence, Science/luxury rate and hurry method) but also in the area of Laws/Edicts you can introduce under that government, and also
Gov-Specific Units/Improvements and Wonders. These could have a number of different effects-from substantially increasing/decreasing Factional Influence, Happiness, tax revenues and corruption-just to name a few.
Just on a final note. I think it should be possible to set taxes the way they are in REAL LIFE (to some degree, anyway). For instance, under taxation you have a bar from 0-100%, and you can set the AVERAGE tax rate paid by your citizens. Then, in the Factions Screen, you can further adjust the tax rates for each factional group-up or down (though this WILL effect happiness)! In addition, you can also adjust the tax rate paid by each CITY (creating interesting situations where you might grossly 'overtax' new colonies, or recently captured cities, whilst letting most of your people off the hook!) As in Civ1-3, your Gov type will effect the maximum 'average' tax rates that you can set. There should also be a seperate 'Budget' screen, where you can allocate a proportion of your budget to various areas-such as Law and Order (Reduces Corruption, increases effectiveness of policemen); Public Works (increases build rates of tile and city improvements); Education/Science (Boosts research rates and improves effectiveness of Research Improvements/Wonders)-just to name a few!

Anyway, I hope you guys like my ideas !

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.